Curse

Paddatoochie · Mar 18, 2007, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Just wondering,
I've been watching many matches of GvG and HoH on observer mode, and have one question. I've noticed that the Monks in GvG mostly always have a secondary to help in their defence (/w or /a), while the Monks in HoH, usually go a secondary for Energy management (/e or/me).
Can anyone tell why there is more of an advantage in HoH, where the battles are usually shorter than in GvG, to have an energy management secondary, while the monks in GvG who have to be in game for quite a while longer, like 10-15+ minutes, only go a secondary for defence.

Thanks,
Wince

Machinae · Mar 18, 2007, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Perhaps something to do with there usually being 2 monks in HoH compared to 3 in GvG? Or maybe that, in HoH, arenas are much smaller so it is alot easier to usilise skills like Channeling.

Just throwing some ideas out there..

Thom Bangalter · Mar 18, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

well, here's the thing.

In GvG, you don't have a 10 foot tall target that doesn't kite and you must make follow you around to complete map objectives. since he doesn't move at all to mitigate damage, you need to get some energy from somewhere to spam heals on him.

Mo/E is pretty common in GvG though too.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 18, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

I see mo/e's all the time in gvg. GoLE+Aegis (or HB/HP) is the meta I think.
Channeling still pwns the shit in HA, so people go /Me. I don't know why you would go /E in HA.

Seef II · Mar 18, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

well, here's the thing.

In GvG, you don't have a 10 foot tall target that doesn't kite and you must make follow you around to complete map objectives. since he doesn't move at all to mitigate damage, you need to get some energy from somewhere to spam heals on him.

Mo/E is pretty common in GvG though too.

Technically, the Guild Lord mostly fits your description of the NPC.

But it's the playstyle of the two types of PvP - one's a chaotic mess, the other with high amounts of team synergy.

Bastian · Mar 18, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I see mo/e's all the time in gvg. GoLE+Aegis (or HB/HP) is the meta I think.
Channeling still pwns the shit in HA, so people go /Me. I don't know why you would go /E in HA.

Meh. Channeling always seemed counter-intuitive to me. I use /E in HA currently for aegis chain. There has been an increase in thumpers and warriors lately. I guess the nerf to SP actually caused people to bring less assassins.

Patrograd · Mar 18, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

The two playstyles (GvG and HA) are very different, and require completely different styles of monking

GvG is about staying alive under intense pressure, about monking via anticipation and positioning. HA is about short battles, heavily intense over aggression, positioning and lines much less important, mad melee, as opposed to the much more structured chess like format of GvG. GvG is very mobile at the moment, skirmish orientated, lots of small short battles happening in multiple locations at once. completely different games really, different metas, different monking requirements

Lord Natural · Mar 18, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Channeling has always been key in HA. Before the altar changes, it was almost necessary to hold, since in a 2v1 situation there is just far too much pressure for 2-3 monks to carry the load with standard (or no) energy management. Standing or kiting around the altar was a guaranteed +3 energy return at least, so the monks could basically spam their heals to compensate for the extra pressure.

Now that alliance battles have taken over HoH, channeling is not as key as it used to be, with exception of the king of the hill scenario. But as it stands the current HA metagame is almost all offense with little to no support, so channeling compensates somewhat by giving the monks greater freedom to spam. Some people still go with GolE, but even with the aegis chain I don't think it's worth it. GolE then Aegis+Prot Spirit offers a return of 20 energy/30 seconds. Considering all of the melee, pets, spirits, and altars, channeling has a much greater benefit provided the monk is careful with map position. You can make a case against it with enchant removal, but come on - There is more enchant removal in RA than HA atm.

Because there are actually lines formed in GvG, channeling offers a less attractive return than GolE. You aren't likely to get a return > 20 per 30 seconds, not to mention enchant removal is more common in GvG.

GvG builds also tend to have much more support than your typical 6 man HA group. Your team should take less damage, and you don't have to worry about a Ghostly cyclone axing through SV and 50 sandstorms. Damage mitigation is key, rather than power heals, unless you're facing a broken build and get outdamaged regardless.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 18, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

There has been an increase in thumpers and warriors lately.

Doesn't an increase in warriors and thumpers make Channeling more effective?

Franco Power · Mar 18, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Doesn't an increase in warriors and thumpers make Channeling more effective?

Not to mention thumpers love Aegis chains, Irresistible blow ftw?

Llint · Mar 18, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

I run /e on almost every monk I run. I find I often die using channeling because I try getting closer to the enemies.

Edit : I guess it really depends on the situation, however I wouldn't run channeling in HA anymore. Also, in GvG people actually try to reduce damage. This is either accomplished via kiting or some self defense. Also a good team can usually go pretty far to reducing damage the team takes.Most pug groups in HA probably dont even know what kiting is.

master_of_puppets · Mar 19, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Power

Not to mention thumpers love Aegis chains, Irresistible blow ftw?

actually very few thumpers nowadays bring IB, it got nerfed a while back, not so good now, most opt for bestial mauling which is ftw

And no there hasnt been any decrease at all of BoA sins, the nerf was stupid, sins can just pack a lil bit more nrg . Anet still fails at balancing, they should have nerfed the recharge instead of cost.

I guess monks in HA take nrg management because of the ghost, and since its an all-out brawl sorta, not really any retreats and stuff like in gvg.

Bastian · Mar 19, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Doesn't an increase in warriors and thumpers make Channeling more effective?

It might make channeling more effective. In 8v8 I used it because it was very efficient. I still hate it and find it counter intuitive, but in HA - you're right, there aren't any real "lines" so its more of a cluster f*ck. In 6v6 I really like GoLE. I'm not gonna lie - thumpers scare the hell outta me. They are very difficult to kite, they can hammer bash you so often it makes me sick that ANet even made a skill like RaO. Anyways, the thought of a 5 energy Aegis is just really appealing to me. I also like having a "hidden" storage of energy for 15 seconds. I really like GoLE with ZB because its free energy if I'm meeting the conditions of ZB. And, IMO ZB > LoD in 6v6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

actually very few thumpers nowadays bring IB, it got nerfed a while back, not so good now, most opt for bestial mauling which is ftw

And no there hasnt been any decrease at all of BoA sins, the nerf was stupid, sins can just pack a lil bit more nrg . Anet still fails at balancing, they should have nerfed the recharge instead of cost.

I usually play between 10PM and 2AM EST, and at those times I do notice a significant decrease in the 2 assassin, 2 ele, 2 monk builds. There is a lot more spirit spam, thumpers, dervished and warriors than I saw before the nerf. I agree the nerf didn't do anything to the asssassin, but perhaps the r0/r3+ groups can't handle the changes? Anyways, I would be happy to have assasins back, RaO makes me wanna vomit. And, yes, IB is uncommon compared to mauling.

Div · Mar 19, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

More energy management is used in HA because fights usually end quicker and there is a lot more damage concentrated in a short amount of time on many targets besides yourself. The need to heal a lot more over a shorter period of time makes the typical HA monk need more short term, fast energy management (vs something like sig of devotion, which is good energy management but works best over time in pressure cases). Also, because the monks are usually more of a target in GvG, especially during splits, they need self survival skills to compensate.

I think they nerfed sins slightly indirectly by forcing them to have more energy, which means slightly less health or damage (in addition to the slight BoS nerf). Seemingly minor changes may end up having big effects on the metagame, and that's currently the case in halls.

Byron · Mar 19, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

The greatest difference, which has been mentioned, is mobility. Monks in HoH don't have the aspect of pushing or falling back as GvG monks do. Generally, a tombs monk will have to sit in one spot (ie, the altar) and spam cost-effective heals to keep stuff alive, regardless of how offensively strong the enemy is. GvG monks respond to pressure by moving forward or back in correspondence to enemy action. The playstyle and skill choice of the two types of monk have evolved accordingly, imho.